Tell me about yourself. Where are you from, your educational background and any previous experience that you may have.

I grew up in China and I went to school in China, my parents are in China as well. I went to a foreign language school for middle and high school. Everyone was supposed to learn a foreign language in that school. My parents actually picked German for me, not English. It was interesting to me because I couldn't speak English until I was 22 and later. And then after graduating high school, I went to Germany for my undergrad. I studied educational science, and I felt like I was studying philosophy because everything was very theoretical. I feel like higher education in Germany is very different from here in the US. Soon, I felt like I wasn't very interested in just academics and I didn’t like writing and reading a lot. I mean, I felt like I wanted to do something a little bit more practical? And that's why I wanted to study something else later.

Also, during the last year of my study, my undergrad university had a partner university in LA. So I went to that school in LA and that was the moment I realized, oh, I feel like the higher education system in the US is more practical, especially when you study education. I realized that there are many universities here in the US that have educational technology majors for a Master's degree. And I think that was the reason I started searching for different universities here in the US that had that major.

Was this for your master's?

Yes. Because I feel like I couldn’t do a lot of things with my undergrad. Also, it would be hard for me to study something completely new because I had studied education for my undergrad. So it needed to be something related. And I did feel like I was interested in staying in the education industry. This is why I started looking for schools here in the U.S. I actually applied to four different schools such as Columbia and UPenn. And I actually got accepted by other universities. But I picked NYU.

So you decided to leave Los Angeles and come to New York?

Yeah, Because I grew up being a large city in China. So I feel like I'm still like a city girl.

What city did you grow up in?

It's called Shenzhen. It's right next to Hong Kong.

So your educational background is a BA in educational science?

It's really hard to translate that German major to English. When we translate it directly, it's educational science. But I feel like it's more like educational philosophy. It's not like we're learning any science subjects.

So what do people usually do with that degree?

Some people do research and they stay in academics. They continue with their masters and Ph.D. And some people do social work. People categorize social work to education in Germany, which is different than in the U.S. Here you just study the social work major. And some people do workforce education or corporate training.

Right that sounds like DMDL, It sort of what DMDL leads to, in a way, designing the education materials.

Anna: But I also, I learned lots of things during my undergrad which are beneficial in the long term. I took lots of classes in psychology and sociology and I read classical educational articles and classical books from German and European philosophers.

Which program did you take?

DMDL

When did you graduate?

I graduated in 2017. It was three years ago. Oh my God!

What was your goal and when you decided to pursue a degree in DMDL?

I actually didn't have a concrete goal at that time, because I'm a person who is very exploratory in my life. So I wasn't planning on doing a certain career or a certain job. But I guess my general goal at that time was to learn something more practical, especially skills that I can use after I graduate in the education field, doesn't matter whether I want to be a teacher or I want to be an instructional designer or anything else.

Very cool, did you achieve your goal?

I think so. Yeah.

What are you doing now?

I am working at an educational software company. It's called Curriculum Associates. My company produces math-learning software and reading learning software. So I'm on the math team.

Where is that located or just curious and never heard of it?

The headquarters in Boston, but there's a Brooklyn office and the design team is in Brooklyn. So that's why I'm working in the Brooklyn office.

How did your schooling help you with your current position?

I feel like the DMDL is a degree that is very broad and can lead to different career paths. I was taking lots of different classes when I was doing my degree because at that time I didn't know what I wanted to do. So I took all random classes like game design, instructional design classes. UX classes, etc. So I think it helped me in a way that I was able to explore different possibilities. For example, I was also working part-time as an instructional designer while I was doing the DMDL program, in the end, I decided that was not something that I wanted to pursue.

The DMDL program gave me choices and possibilities. It provided many opportunities for you to try different careers and acquire the skills and knowledge you need in different industries. And that eventually led me to find the position that I'm in right now, which I enjoy doing a lot.

Just going back to your actual position. What are you doing when you say designing software for math?

My title is interactive designer. It's very similar to UX /UI designer. I'm not mainly responsible for the pedagogical part, because we have instructional designers and editorial teams to write the curriculum. I'm responsible for designing the interface of the software and also the rational, logic and aesthetics of the software. Also, we want to embed gamified elements in the lesson. We want the visuals to look interesting and the usability to be smooth. I'm responsible for these things.

Are you lacking in any information or skills when you started your job and if you were, what was it and how did you learn it?

I think that was the good thing about DMDL, but also not so good. The difficulty that I was facing after I graduated was I felt like I knew lots of things in different areas: I knew lots of things in instructional design, game design, and also skills in UX design. But I felt like I wasn't that competitive, compared to people who studied UX Design as their degree, or people who studied graphic design and came from art backgrounds. So that was something I struggled with because I felt like I wasn't professionally trained as a designer. And so I just started learning those skills by myself. I started learning by taking online classes and watching YouTube videos. Just like learning by doing, and whenever there was a project that required me to have certain skills, I learned on my own.

Yeah. So have you remained in contact with any faculty or students from DMDL?

I am in contact with some faculty. Sometimes I send emails to catch up. Sometimes I talk to Maaike and Camillia.

Has it helped you with your career at all?

Yeah. Every time when I change my job, they always help me with my reference letter. And also whenever I have questions, they are always supporting me. And I was invited to different Alumni events, which is pretty cool. Even now, I already graduated for three years, and I still get invitations to the thesis presentations.

Do you have any words of advice for those in the middle of pursuing their degree or for those who are about to start off her degree?

I feel like it might sound cliche, but I wish everyone would enjoy the program more during their study. It is true that we need to be practical, and yes, we do need to be worried about finding a job after graduation, but at the same time, we should try to enjoy the time we spent during the program. Because there were a lot of fun classes, I especially remember game design classes and a class about storytelling & exploring technologies. Every week we explored a new technology. One week, we were in this VR lab and the other week we were experimenting with 3D printers and AR. So yes, we need to be practical about life and about career, but I think it's important to be more exploratory and also enjoy being a part of the DMDL community.

My final question, do you have any other thoughts that you would like to share?

I'm just really grateful that I am part of the community and I was a part of our program. Back to The last question you asked me, I don’t see education in a very narrow sense, like school education, classroom education, etc. Instead, it's about learning, it is about knowing humans. Like, how do people acquire knowledge? How do people interact with the environment? Not only digital devices but also the physical environment. So for me, it's not only an education program, it's more about understanding human nature, and their relationships between devices, technology, and other humans. And I think that changed my life a lot because I started to think that it's not just about acquiring knowledge, but also how do I leverage the benefit of technology? How can I better use technology in my own life? I started to do lots of self-development. I started exploring digital devices and applications related to physical fitness, meditation, mental health, and also nutrition. There are so many ways technology is affecting our lives. Of course, we also need to be critical, but at the same time, if we use technology in an efficient way, it can impact our lives positively. And I think that's really something DMDL inspired me to do. Just be more empathetic and open-minded about the world.